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Reply with quote  #1 
Whether she was said to have run off with a boyfriend named "RED" or went to visit a soldier in San Diego, or off to Chicago, Ill. with Jack to do a photo shoot, you would have our suspect on the hook. Even if I had the wrong thing spelled out here like a photographer named "RED" or took a train to San Diego, either way, our suspect is Jack, AKA Red, AKA a photographer, AKA stationed in San Diego, CA, at the time, AKA with previous knowledge of Chicago, IL, with a minimum of following Black Dahlia from Chicago, IL, thru Texarkana, and onto to Florida which is where witnesses have claimed her to have gone previous to her death, and others in her social group suffering the same demise. There was a Zodiac style killing on a lover's lane in Florida during the time that BD left from Chicago to Florida and then finally to her death in Los Angeles, CA 1947.

Here we will follow the last known happenings of Elizabeth Short, and how this plays into my theory of a "Prolific Serial Killer."

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Reply with quote  #2 
BTW, DK posted a link to an article found in the 1947 Los Angeles Times, Black Dahlia case, where a Fred Woodley said the last guy seen with E.Short was a guy named Jack and  matched Jack description, he said the guy became belligerent. Everything matched except the guy claimed that the suspect was missing a finger on his right hand. I have noticed in some photo's of JT; that the way he hold his right hand it's like one finger is curled up while the rest are straighter. Do you know anything about this matter? Perhaps it was false info designed to steer the cops away from JT? Kinda like the Ed Burns nonsense?

I would have put this in the Black Dahlia thread but for some reason it's locked out.

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Reply with quote  #3 
I tried to bring up the link on DK's site, but it was no longer working. I will take a look at all the pics of JT that I have.
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Reply with quote  #4 
I'm reviewing the "Black Dahlia Files" book by Donald H.Wolfe. He refutes many of the things that Steve Hodel contends, he said that Dr George Hodel was cleared as a suspect way back in 1947. E.Short's family said the pictures that Hodel had are not of E. Short. I've seen them too and they barely resemble E. Short, which of course is ridicules on his part.

Found near the crime scene was a Croton military watch, I haven't been able to find out what the time on the watch read. This would serve as a early example of a time/date stamp as found on the subsequent murders, which is of course is JT 101.

At the time, then LAPD Sgt Donahoe said that the Dahlia murder was probably tied to the Chicago Lipstick/Degnan murder based on several things, but especially the similarities between the Chicago Lipstick/Degnan ransom note and the letters sent in on the Dahlia murder. It's a well documented fact that E. Short was being stalked and was in fear for her life, it's also a fact that she was actively curious regarding the Chicago Lipstick/Degnan murders.

The suspicious things are the facts that several key points regarding these murders went and still go unreported. Lies by blatant omission. Lies like saying she was "going to Chicago to do some modeling" and leaving out the fact that her last letter said "she was going to Chicago with Jack to do some modeling". Lies like saying her body was "dumped", when it was in fact put "on display". etc.

Donald Wolfes' book is a very good read. The fact that the Hennepin County library has copies of it and no copies of Graysmith's books or Hodel's books is interesting. Graysmith's books are now being treated as fiction and rightfully so.

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Reply with quote  #5 
BTW, the address book that was sent in by the killer, that one that had certain pages torn out of it was in  E. Shorts handwriting. It had Mark Hansen's name and 1937 embossed in gold on it. Hanson said it was stolen from him, Hansen was a suspect, he gave testimony that conflicted with that of Ann Toth, Ann Toth said Hansen was very possessive of E. Short, Hansen denied that. Here's the kicker.....he said the address book was sent to him as a gift from his native land of Denmark. It reminds me of the mysterious copy of the book in Danish that was found in the Ramsey home.
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Reply with quote  #6 
The pics Steve Hodel put in his book were so obviously not Elizabeth Short. They look nothing like her, ever! I do not doubt that Hodel has survived and lived off of steering this case as TV was meant to steer the Zodiac case.

The watch simply ties one crime scene to the next, AKA LB in Zodiac.
Communications to another - CJB Confession letter ties Black Dahlia to her murder... Each crime spree recognized in the next by a motive that has and was very prevalent when it came to every one of these crimes. Time, communications, and taunting while getting away with it while at the same time claiming it. One leap frogs into another during different time frames.

You are from Minnesota TerryB?


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Reply with quote  #7 
Otherwise known as Mina snow ta. Yes I am. Damn cold during winter.

DK posted something about the DNA in the CJB murder not being a DNA match to Jack, therefore using his reasoning, Jack wasn't involved. I then asked questions about that but he never answered. Questions like: "What kind of evidence was kept int he CJB murder? etc, since when does LE report to him?

Since I suspect that JT was an operative/associate of organized crime, it wouldn't be surprising if various killers were involved in the actual commission of the different murders, however JT was a dead ringer in the Stine murder and Hartnell gave details that would fit JT as well. Dk says JT was home Christmas of 1996, I'm not calling DK a liar but who the hell remembers that particular year vs another year going back that far? On the other hand, the ransom note repeats: "Follow our(my) instructions to the letter", the same of which hints a possible murder by proxy added to the fact the the evidence says the actual killing was kinda sloppy.

I'm reviewing the Donald Wolfe book, the MO of the killer is almost identical in all of these cases. In retrospect, the killer has always been very anxious to control things "after the fact". He's right there ready to reinforce certain key false information, information that steers everyone's thinking. If people set aside the gruesome and nasty characteristics of these various killings and proceed while looking for a sensible motive, then everything makes perfect sense. It was pointed out that in the Dahlia murder that the killer didn't succeed in having LE believe that he was illiterate by using purposely misspelled words, they said that they believed that the killer was educated.  Certainly the precision by which E.Short was bisected denotes education. The cutting of her mouth was done with a rather jagged blade, while the bisection was done with a very sharp instrument. Certainly Jack being of a technical type of mind, would have no trouble performing this operation. They also said E.Shorts remains were probably kept on ice up until they were deposited in the vacant lot. A lot of time was spent on her body "making things seem..... like something they were not".

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Reply with quote  #8 
DK said that the FBI ran a DNA sample from a relative that excluded JT as a possible donor of the DNA found at the CJB crime scene. I don't know if he was told the truth or if once again, the DNA was never really ran like with SFPD and the botched envelope experience.

As for Christmas, JT, per Nora Kaufman's diary, left the end of November to go to Texas to take care of his mom, and returned Christmas evening; however, the entry date in the diary has been changed to an earlier date. Which reminds me, that is an important entry to examine and see if it is truly Nora's handwriting because DK indicated that JT had changed her journals on occasion in the computer. Why would her diaries be any different??? What DK does recall about that time is that he had been evicted from another home and had to move which occurred on New Year's Eve, and that he had to set up a bed in the new home for JT because he was terribly sick... Which coincides with Nora's diary about the move and JT's condition because by February JT was in the hospital with congestive heart problems. Which matches BTW one eye witness account whereby they described the likes of JT and that the person had a look that they knew well because their father(?) suffered from, and I quote, "congestive heart failure." So the witness knew what a person looked like in that condition. I have the article on this particular statement. So, DK remembers JT being there during the holidays, but obviously forgot that he left, and I don't believe that he remembers what day precisely JT returned to them.

There is definitely a perception of control in the all the communications with statements like that, and the fact that the killer perceived himself to be better at not leaving evidence than LE was at figuring out puzzles.

I watched something last night where an underground/homeless society had rules, and talking to LE caused one of the girls to be killed and her mouth was cut from one side of her jaw to the other. Obviously a huge sign that talking is not tolerated. It reminded me of BD.

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Reply with quote  #9 
Last paragraph first, Sicilian's called it Omerta, a code of silence. I think that some of E.Shorts friends knew specific things but were too scared to talk about it. Yeah, the cutting of the mouth was a clear message.

Yeah, the changing of that entry date seems suspicious.

That was the witness on the bus that told about the guy that looked like he suffered from congestive heart failure, wasn't that were it was? Was that Dan Pride that gave that story, or was he the one that claimed that he thought the guy looked like John Mark Karr on the bus?

I've never been able to get any articles about DNA evidence in the Cheri Jo Bates murder. Certainly the crime has everything else about it as being the same M.O. I think DK is just being obstinate about some things and to his own detriment.

I can't help but have one branch of reasoning that basically looks at the Zodiac persona being formulated to draw attention away from the true killer of CJB, perhaps Mr X did it and JT was brought in a fixer? Were blood and tissue samples kept in cold storage all these years? I've never heard whether JT's DNA is known or not?


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Reply with quote  #10 
I think Dan Pride has been quoted as saying both about the description. The way I read it, was that Pride first gave the scenario of an older male, white hair, limp in his walk, and the look of congestive heart failure. Then as I read on, he had given the next account that matched JMK. Strange for such a change in the story, but no different than the "drawl" that Hartnell described at first, then recanted years later.

DK never spoke about the DNA in the CJB case until we had our first falling out. He played right along in the CJB case with a knife that JT had in his belongings that had a broken tip and half a handle, and he played on it even being the same make, so when did the testing of the DNA come into play? I don't know, but there was no talk of it - at all - while I was examining these cases.

I am surprised that there is any DNA left in these cases... I have heard; that DNA in these cases was ran using an older test and this took a lot of DNA to do it, so getting a sample sufficient to get a reference wasn't possible; that there just wasn't any DNA; that SFPD botched JT's DNA from an envelope that the FBI sent to them; that in 2002 Harry Phillips ran a segment on the Zodiac and elimination of suspects that included Arthur Leigh Allen through DNA testing, and JT was suppose to be included in this group, but DK claimed that he asked HP why JT didn't end up in the segment, and DK claims that HP said, "Because we knew the other 8 suspects were not the Zodiac"; that the FBI supposedly asked DK if they should run JT's DNA against the JBR case, but he said there was no way JT was involved with it, so it was never tested (he told me this in the middle of one of our arguments); that they couldn't run JT's DNA through the criminal system because he wasn't a criminal (how about every suspect they run DNA on now to either eliminate or include in a crime, criminal or not?); that the FBI spoke to Danny Reynolds who was incarcerated at the time, and offered him a deal to speak, but he declined (his DNA is obviously in the system, why not use this to include or eliminate the DNA mix on the botched SFPD envelope?); so, I am completely confused as to what law enforcement can do to the people at large, yet get away with some of the things that they do???? Definitely confused.... I do not even know if they have JT's DNA or were using a familial sample for reference to exclude as DK claimed. 

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Reply with quote  #11 
Last thing first: DK has been missing in action on all of the DNA information, he tells a little bit about it then he leaves everybody hanging. Yeah, Dennis fought the inclusion of JT in the JBR case up until we listed several things about that case that pointed right to JT, then DK seemed to go along with it, yet he lets the pseudo-trolls pour out all of their nonsense. I say pseudo-trolls because I don't know who is currently running his MB, his MB isn't as transparent as it used to be, maybe it never was? If DK is still involved, it's like he's taken a dive and thrown the fight. As desperate as he is for money, that wouldn't be surprising. If other people are suggesting a look at JT in the JBR case, that tells me that they see at least some of the things that we see. I don't believe that Boulder PD and DA haven't noted all of the JT nuances, perhaps someone in the FBI has steered them away from JT?

The CJB case was and is considered a Zodiac case by both the FBI and the cops. This crap is all part of a criminal conspiracy, so solely using DNA to include or exclude anyone is folly. I'm not writing off the DNA evidence, I'm just saying it must be used with consideration of all lines of reasoning. As hard as the perpetrators worked to divert and steer everyone's thinking, it wouldn't be surprising if the DNA evidence was planted. Planting such evidence back in 1966 doesn't seem very likely, since DNA profiling wasn't yet in place. The fact that a watch was found at the scene, smacks of the Black Dahlia case and is JT 101 as you know.

Donald Wolfe's take on the Black Dahlia case makes the most sense in that he thinks that it was part of  a shakedown operation most likely directed at Norman Chandler, I think it could have been anyone that was wealthy. The hole in E.Shorts pelvis was said to be a sign of a hysterectomy operation, full info on this is lacking in the public forum. Wolfe's report runs a little too neutral regarding the Chicago Cop escort last seen with E.Short, maybe that report is fiction, I don't have a way of knowing this one way or the other.

Check out the 1949 case of Jean Spangler, it smacks of  being a very similar MO, the only thing found of her was her strap torn purse with a note to "Kirk" which implies she was going to see an abortion doctor and that Kirk was maybe Kirk Douglas. Investigators think that her purse was found in a odd/funny location, they used the word "Ferndale". Perhaps the shakedown was terminated, because a couple of Mickey Cohens hoods went missing at the same time as Spangler. BTW, Spanglers real name was Benner. (sp) Ferndale may be poetically linked to the OCCK and Anthrax cases, ie; Franklin Park, Greendale school, 4th grade (age of victims)? etc. The reason it say terminated was because there were no taunting letters that followed that crime, or none that I know of?

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Reply with quote  #12 
Oh yeah, I read the Dan Pride report the same way as you did. It was very funny indeed and very much so Zodiac Jack 101.
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Reply with quote  #13 
DK never had control of his board. He really had no time for it, and would allow pretty much anyone to moderate, even me! I can't imagine where all his time goes other than he is constantly putting out fires when it comes to a stable place to live or finding steady income, but other than that, he seemed to do much of nothing. It is like a tweeker spinning their wheels instead of getting off the drugs.

I read a little about Spangler I believe, and yes there are a few unsolved murders that are not listed on Wikipedia that should be attributed to this ring of crimes, and I find that the majority of those on Wikipedia should be, and probably were at one time or another. I do not have any background on what she was involved with, but I noted the similarities in the crimes.

It is my feeling that CJB is rightfully attributed to the Zodiac in too many ways....

I hadn't looked at the cross connection between those you mentioned, but that's because I don't have the info you do on it.


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Reply with quote  #14 
Nanette, the poetic cross-connected words are something that people like the mysterious Bob in the OCCK case have indicated, people unrelated to Bob on other forums have made these points. I've avoided them, because to newbies, they sound paranoid and flaky, nevertheless, there are far to many of them for it to be a mere coincidence. 

In John Douglas' book, Mind Hunter, he points this out as being one of the characteristics of a highly organized serial killer, the killer knows what he's doing is wrong and chaotic, so he compensates by doing things that bring "order out of chaos". It's a coping mechanism for the killer, a part of justifying his wrongful deeds in his own mind.

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Reply with quote  #15 
Nanette, regarding the Spangler case, I tend to wonder if Jack Dragna didn't shut down that ruse, figuring that it would draw too much attention to his other operations. He probably didn't need the fallout from another Dahlia operation?, that would explain why two of Cohen's other hoods disappeared at the same time. People in the rackets know what goes on in their own territory, they've got eye's on the streets 24/7. I doubt that Dragna had anything to do with the Dahlia operation, especially since her remains were deposited so close to his own home.

One eyewitness claimed that the day before the Dahlia event, he was dumping some lawn clippings on a empty near the scene and says he witnessed a guy in a 36 sedan looking over the area where E. Short's remains were later deposited. Several attempts were made on Mickey Cohen's life after the that point in time.

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