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Jupiter

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Several weeks ago I mentioned that Nanette might be able to obtain some of Jack’s Naval Service records to help nail down timelines for where he was in 1945. I decided I’d send an inquiry to see how much it would cost to get copies of those records. Well, apparently, it’s free because I received them in the mail today!

I’ve posted them all to my Photobucket account (you can look under JupitersPB, if you’re interested). In addition to some stuff for his first stint in the Navy, they sent some info from his second stint in 1954-55. I believe that these records indicate that Jack could not be the Lipstick Killer because he was at the Naval Reserve Station in Dallas, TX when Josephine Ross was murdered.  NA Form 13164 (Information Releasable Under the Freedom of Information Act) state that Jack entered the Navy in Dallas, TX. Training records, before he actually entered Active Service on 12/12/45, show that from 6/2/45- 6/27/45, Jack was in Dallas. Ross was killed on 6/5 in Chicago.



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I find it interesting that you could obtain any records that the FBI claimed burned in the 1971 fire in Nov. 2009 when Dennis and I requested them, also it's a little fishy that an FOIA request for military records per the FBI website you must be next of kin in order to request them.

If JT was enlisted on June 2nd 1945, and immediately shipped as my grandfather was from TX to Great Lakes, ILL then it puts JT right where he needs to be on June 5-6, 1945. Don't rule him out.... Also, his mother was already living in Chicago, Ill. at this point, and could have been allowed a leave just previous to being sent to training to get his affairs in order. Still too many holes to rule him out.

And, his release from this stint was in perfect timing for the 2nd murder that occurred in December 45.

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Jupiter

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Reply with quote  #3 
Whoever told Dennis that all of Jack's records were lost was mistaken or misinformed. According to the National Archives website (http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/fire-1973.html), the records affected were:

 

Quote:

Army-  Personnel discharged November 1912 to January 1, 1960 (estimated 80% loss)

 Air Force- Personnel discharged September 24, 1947 to January 1, 1964 (with names alphabetically after Hubbard, James E.)(estimated loss 75%)

 Navy Records were not lost in the blaze, but Jack’s Air Force records likely would have been because he served from 3/48 to 2/50.

According to http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/archival-programs/index.html

Archival Records are open to the public.

Quote:
Records are accessioned into the National Archives, and become archival, 62 years after the service member's separation from the military. This is a rolling date; hence, the current year, 2012, minus 62 years is 1950. Records with a discharge date of 1950 or prior are archival and are open to the public. 

Quote:
Without the consent of the veteran or next-of-kin, the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) can only release limited information from the Official Military Personnel File (OMPF) to the general public.

I had only requested records from his first stint, because the second one was after 1950, but they sent some information from the latter enlistment, as well. It is basically just the dates, his pay grade, and where he was stationed at that time. I'm sure if Charles or one of Jack's other blood kin were to request records, they could obtain a lot more information than what I received.

You can request the records by filling out Standard Form (SF) 180, Request Pertaining to Military Records to the National Personnel Records Center. There are links to the form. http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/public/general-public.html

I know you don't like to follow links from here, so if you just Google something like "request military records" you will get hits to the National Archives website and you can find the info through there. I don't see why anyone would need to request military records through the FBI, since those records are maintained by the National Archives.

I believe these documents indicate that Jack was not sent to Great Lakes for training. They indicate that from 6/2/45- 6/27/45 he was training at the NRS in Dallas, TX. From there, he was sent to the Naval Training Station in San Diego where he continued his training from 6/30/45 through 9/29//45. He was then sent to the US Naval TADCEN installation at Treasure Island in San Francisco beginning on 9/29/45 and remained there until he entered Active Service the following day on 12/12/45. I still feel it's not likely that they would have allowed him to leave CA for 3 weeks immediately after beginning his service. Some branches of service grant 10 days leave after technical school is completed; so it could be said it's possible for him to have gone to Chicago for Frances Brown on 12/20. But, the timeline is too tight, in my opinion, for him to have murdered Ross or Degnan. 

habituation

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Reply with quote  #4 
I am very well aware of what should have been contained in the warehouse that burned down because I did this research myself in 2009.

Dennis and I were both told by agent Chris Hopkins at the same time, in person, that JT's records burned in that fire, and I posted on this at that time because I knew better. All of JT's military records would have followed him to whatever military he enlisted in and been kept together in one jacket. This should have ended up in Naval records because it was JT's last enlistment, and would never have came to rest in the Air Force records.

I spoke with my grandfather in regards to this record for an explanation of the acronyms, and this is his response: Grandpa indicated that there was not a naval reserve station during that time considering no one was in reserve as the draft and wars were on.

NRS is Naval Recruiting Station, and it shows that JT was basically placed on a hold until they figured out where he would go to be trained. We see a short period of 25 days where grandpa says that they were just sitting around with nothing to do, and no one to keep track of them. Grandpa says that it happened to him at the end of WWII for a month and a half where he was on hold, and had no duties or requirements to attend to, so basically it was lolly gagging time. This means that I am dead on when it comes to my theories of where JT was at this time. We see his first boot camp in San Diego well after the first murder. This also means that JT probably had the same lag time that my grandfather did at the end of WWII which also gives him opportunity to have committed the last 2 crimes before returning to CA.

Thank you Jupiter for the finding of these records. I knew that they were not destroyed, but the question here is, why did the FBI tell us they were. It's as if they are purposely attempting to redirect Dennis, and this boggles me. If his records could prove him innocent you would think that the FBI would be happy to present them to Dennis to show him he was wrong.


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Jupiter

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Reply with quote  #5 

I don’t know enough about the military to know where a person’s records would be kept. I would assume that it is unusual for a person to serve in more than one branch of the military; so I would not know whether that person’s records would be grouped as a whole, or stored separately according to branch of service.  I suppose if I get motivated to be resourceful, I could contact the Archives Technician who dug up the records on Jack and ask her. Maybe once summer winds down for good, I'll try to pursue that. I also wouldn’t be able to speculate as to why Agent Hopkins would tell you that Jack’s records were destroyed in the fire. Well, I guess I could- a) ignorance, b) he didn’t want to be bothered to find them, c) etc.; but, it would just be supposition on my part.

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with your opinion on what Jack may have been doing during the month of June, 1945. I’m sure that there are down times for soldiers and it’s possible that Jack had such a time immediately after he enlisted on 6/2/45. However, the only documentation as to his whereabouts during that month are the military records that place him in TX. In addition, his Air Force Discharge Papers indicate that from 1942- 1945 he worked as a truck driver for Lubbock Materials Co. in Lubbock, TX. In my opinion, this lends further support to his presence in TX during most of 1945, until he was shipped to the Naval Training Center in San Diego on 6/30/45.  I guess what I’m saying is, that without some form of documentation showing Jack was physically in Illinois during 1945, my gut tells me to believe the documentation that is available. If there were some form of paper trail that could show definitively that Jack’s mother lived in Chicago at that time, or that Jack traveled there immediately after enlisting or that he was there sometime in 1945, I’d be more inclined to be open-minded about it. But I think, for me, these new records support what I had believed.
I think that’s one of the most interesting parts of the Zodiac and other true crime cases- how 2 individuals can look at the same information and draw 2 different conclusions.  I hope we can agree to disagree and still discuss our opinions. 

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Reply with quote  #6 

Here's another theory Jupiter, Dennis tells one of JT's stories about when he first entered the military in 45, that he was told he didn't weigh enough, go gain some weight and come back. JT claims he ate a boat load of bananas to gain weight. If I wanted to gain weight and I was 17-18, I would go home for mom's cooking. What if this 25 day period that he lay in wait was that period that JT talks about?

Either way, it still frees him up for that time frame with no accountability for where he was or what he was doing.

I have spoke to soldiers who have served in different branches, and they said their files follow them where ever they go and ends there with them. It may not be normal to enlist in different branches, but you have to consider that at one point the Army and Air Force were one. The Armed Forces as stated on JT's records. They split into individual groups at some point, and JT served for the Air Force, and the Navy, so it appears that he served under 3 different branches, but really it is only 2. Most would pick a career and stick with it, and I have commented on the fact that JT must not have gotten to where he wanted to in each of these and that is why he hopped around, or he was trying to learn as much as he could from each.

Maybe, he only used the service to cover what he was really up to. It is like JT to kill once before moving into an area while on a visit scouting for his new home, and continue with more victims with a final one just before, or right after relocating to the next place. This makes him a ghost to the authorities searching for a suspect. I still wonder if the letter Heiren's was found with after being arrested was a school project or a letter from the suspect? This we may never know....

If there is one thing we disagree on, it's that there isn't a paper trail?

I for one believe the handwriting which is it's own sort of paper trail if you consider that the most disguised letters in this suspect's writing just like Z's is the "A's", "N's", "L's", and I would have to revisit the letters to comment on the others, and this is why I need to start from the beginning again. I took many of the cases out of order, and this really looks like a simple puzzle when studied in order like a book, will give a greater insight to the connections and cross clues.

Remember, that just like JBR, one of LK's victims was a 6 year old, blonde girl from a prominent family where a ransom note was left with no intent of returning the child alive. I could go on about the similarities in this case if you would like, but I'd rather allow it to follow up in the proper threads as I introduce them, so we can stay in order. I think that your brain storming is great, and obviously your research skills are good, so I do not think that we will have a problem in our conversations.


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TerryB

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Reply with quote  #7 
Even if those records are actual and accurate they don't show details. Records of that sort wouldn't be impossible to falsify, look at the fuzzy military records of both of Poppy Bush and GW Bush, both have controversy surrounding their actual military records, then try to sort out the birth certificate on  President Obama. As the song goes "There's Two Sides to Every Story."

I look at the irrefutable fact that the Chicago Lipstick wall writing has distinctive letters that can be matched to several Zodiac killer documents, those being the backwards stemmed "t's" and the curly top "F" that directly matches to the address box on at least one Zodiac killer envelope. The "S" in Heavens also matches the "S" on the eighth line of the JBR ransom letter in the fanciful way he constructed the word "She". There are more examples of this kind of artwork throughout all of the cases we've explored.

I agree with Nanette's work on the handwriting matching as well. Also her point about the target of one victim being someone like old man Degnan, again a wealthy person; the killer wasn't after the ransom money, he wanted to terrorize the community just like BD, Zodiac, OCCK, JBR, Anthrax etc.

The way all of the so-called suspects were abused is outrageous and especially a 17 year old like Heirens , this was all a very sure sign of racketeering by the Chicago Police, just like in OCCK and BDP and the FBI's mishandling of the Anthrax/Amerithrax cases.

I believe that some of the victims were chosen to obscure the true motive, that being that wealthy people were the prime targets.

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Jupiter

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Reply with quote  #8 

Although these records have some additional information than the ones posted on Nanette’s Photobucket, they jibe very well with the Navy records found in Jack’s possession after he died. For example, his Naval Discharge record indicates that he received a promotion from CR to S1 in November of 1945. This is supported by the pay grade increase from S2c to S1c he received that month that is listed on the Naval training records shown posted above, as well as another one posted to my JupitersPB (#5 of 25). In addition, the training records indicate he completed training on 12/11, and the NA Form 13164 shows he entered Active Service on 12/12. This is supported by Jack’s Discharge papers which give the same date of entry. It doesn’t seem likely that someone trying to forge/ alter these documents could know what documents Jack had in his possession that might be found later and used for comparison.  I don’t doubt the authenticity of the documents or the information contained within them.

In terms of the handwriting analysis, it would be used as a piece of supporting evidence if other definitive proof could be offered that connected Jack to the crime scenes, or even to Chicago during the times of occurrence.  If I were to put myself in the place of a juror on a case like this, the analysis alone would not sway me to convict. Nanette is not the only Handwriting Analyst to match a suspect to the Lipstick Killer, Black Dahlia Avenger and Zodiac. As I’m sure you both know, Hannah McFarland, has identified George Hodel as the author of these documents. Now, I DO NOT, I repeat, I DO NOT believe George Hodel committed those crimes. The point I’m raising is that there are 2 Document Examiners, each identifying different suspects for the same crimes. In a court of law, how would we know which, if either of them, was correct without other supporting evidence? Hodel has theorized many of the same connections between the cases (e.g., locations of the bodies, etc.), so those hypotheses would also be unlikely to sway a jury. I hope you can see that this is what I mean when I spoke of a “paper trail”. 

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Reply with quote  #9 
Jupiter, I would like you to put yourself in the juror's position at this time....

     First and foremost, McFarland never made an identification. I read her opinion and it said there were similarities, and only Hodel claims that she made an identification. Have you ever heard or seen her come to the forefront to make the very identification that I did? I am sure not!

     Second, I would/can convince the jury because I come in with displays and PowerPoint Presentations that show the facts and evidence about the handwriting unlike any veteran of handwriting that I have come up against. They think their word is good enough. I think that the evidence speaks for itself. Don't take my word, let me show you in other words.

    I do not expect anyone would take me for my word because of the convolution in this case, but like TerryB, who shows the JT clues to people, you cannot deny that it exists, and when no one else fits the bill just like that, you have an identification.

     I promise you, in a court of law, I can and will show the facts that support my opinion, not just some lame excuse of I have 20 years of handwriting experience and you should believe me!


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TerryB

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Reply with quote  #10 
I read quite a bit about Hodel and there is no evidence that supports his claims about his dad. He made money selling his lame crap and that's too bad because he's completely full of it.

Nanette's presentation is eloquently direct and easy for a layperson to follow and because of the large number of direct matches by overlay it is conclusive. Add that to the JT clues and the tape recorded remarks he made to Dennis and you've got a solid basis for prosecution, furthermore there are many pieces of circumstantial evidence to bolster a case against him.

On the Anthrax case it might be tougher because of the limited amount of documents, OCCK doesn't have any documents with handwriting as far as we know. I personally don't know enough about I45 and Texarcana documents.

Because the military records lack details I think they become a moot point, furthermore the evidence cited will greatly override that record, an argument can be made by a prosecutor that Tarrance might present the records cited by jupitor but that Tarrance rigged his enlistment to act as an alibi, the point is that his exact whereabouts can't be concluded by that enlistment and the evidence cited overrides that argument. And yes I have seen the Navy group photo.

Many people have been falsely convicted and many guilty parties have gotten off, that's the reality.

I feel strongly based on the active opposition to the Zodiac Jack connection that someone out there is very worried, they're worried that their activities may be uncovered, the actual motive in these crimes is money, follow the money as they say, the common denominator has been wealthy victims woven in with middle class victims.

Falsifying military record has probably been done many times via many methods and the most common would be bribery and coercion. It would have been easy for a guy as smart as JT was.

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Jupiter

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Reply with quote  #11 

I’ve never seen McFarland speak about the Hodel cases. She does allow Steve Hodel to invoke her name repeatedly in conjunction with them, and her website includes a testimonial from Black Dahlia Avenger, so it appears that she is comfortable in her published opinion that George Hodel was the author of those writings. I’ve read her report, as well as the communications between herself and Steve Hodel that she allowed him to print in his books and online. While her language is more conservative (e.g. “most highly probable" ) in the reports than in the personal communications, I recall reading that LA County Prosecutor Stephen Kay said that “highly probable” was as high a match as could be made without examination of original documents. I have no idea if that’s true or what the rules are for terminology in an analysis. But, from her letters to Steve Hodel it seems clear that she does feel that she has made a positive match between George Hodel and the suspect writings in those cases.

I agree, TerryB. Steve Hodel's case is exceedingly weak and I don't think he has proven anything.

I know that some might feel impressed with a Document Examiner that has X number of years of experience, but longevity in the field wouldn’t be much of a “convincer” for me without other evidence that definitively places the suspect at or near the scene of the crime or in some way links him directly to the victims or crime scenes. 

TerryB

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Reply with quote  #12 
My impression of Hodel's dad was that he was a womanizer that was rough on the wife and kids, he also might have been a sex addict...if you will. As you know; there just wasn't any tangible evidence to include his dad. Like catseye, Hodel jr leaped to too many conclusions based on half-baked theories. In other words; I think his dad was a lover and not a killer, he was too in love with himself to risk his reputation and freedom by killing anyone.

As far as the JT business goes...I was highly skeptical upon arrival at the Kaufman site, I lurked that site for a long time, I was totally bugged by catseye's nonsense. I thought that Kaufman's handwriting comparisons were intriguing but of course I had no provenance or chain of custody over the samples shown.  I though Nanette was very circumspect in her work but this was well before her PPP on the subject.
 
As I have stated many times before; once I recognized the JT clues in the JBR ransom letter... I was floored, this caused me to go back and double check Nanette's workmanship, I admit that I'm not a trained document examiner but I think I'm just as smart as the next guy, I carefully checked her methodology and admit I'm playing catch up ball at that point but low and behold her work was sound and scientific. This is why I've hung in there with Nanette, I've been hoping that Dennis would "see the light" and realize that he needs to at least try to be civil towards her. Whether he recognizes it or not... she has greatly augmented his findings, bringing in these other cases shows that she has applied herself and that justice is something she holds in the highest regard as do I. I applauded her work and the fact that she has connected these other cases, I've been lucky enough to find many more solid JT signature clues because of her work. Nanette was a very good moderator on Kaufmans' MB, we at times disagreed about catseye but I appreciate her point of view on that, I hope she now appreciates mine as well with regard to catseye.

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habituation

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Reply with quote  #13 
Thank you TerryB, for your support. I know that it isn't easy to see your way out of a paper bag when it comes to this case, and whodunit??? I think that there is a reason that JT left so much of his paperwork from certain time periods behind. These red herrings that you talk about TerryB. I know that I have much more that has not been gone through or published, but I scanned for future reference. I often wonder why just these documents supporting where he was at what time, and not everything. Usually if a person keeps receipts religiously like myself, you keep everything for a certain number of years, but JT continued to keep things from well into his past with what would appear to be no rhyme or reason. Trick here is to figure out what he was trying to prove by keeping them.
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TerryB

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Reply with quote  #14 
So if I understand your last post.... you think it's telling that he would keep certain receipts to act as an alibi for  specific periods of time? If so; do the dates of those receipts  cover each suspected crime spree?

Certainly it seems that our main suspect got bolder and bolder with each crime and it also seems as though he wanted credit for his deeds by the fact that he plastered his initials all over the JBR ransom letter, initials found on most of the other crimes we've explored. Leaving something of himself at the crime and taking souvenirs is a common characteristic with the organized serial killer. 

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habituation

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Reply with quote  #15 
It's more like he kept bills or communications that support his whereabouts during the time frames of the crime sprees so that he could be tracked to that area during those time frames. But, the weird thing is that he didn't keep absolutely everything, just a little from each excursion. Like the handwriting he chose to keep of his own from different eras. Most of us would be hard pressed to have 3-4 page handwritten notes to ourselves throughout our lives, and JT has several. He kept handwritten reports from 83-93 from HP. This suggests that he was definitely keeping track of himself. He would keep a bill with a particular address and different names that he was using.

I think JT had to be far more careful than the average killer because he was career murdering, and the left him keeping things that are a "red herring", but didn't solidify anything unless someone could put it all together.

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