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habituation

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Reply with quote  #1 
TerryB, I moved your last few posts in the LK thread to the question and answer forum for this thread. I do not want to break up the evidence with speculation or theories. I would like to see the facts of the case and direct connection via pictures linked from what you talk about to prove your statements; otherwise, comments shoud remain in this one.

10:30 AM 9/29/2012 By TerryB:

This is a great thread Nanette, these documents clearly show a fanciful and artistic tendency of the killer, it's a game to him. I think that the backwards "t's" serve as his initials, that type of "W" in wait; can be found on Zodiac and Scorpion documents and the "F" that was done in one stroke can be found on Zodiac killer documents.

Then of course we have the Zodiac theme with "For Heavens sake" and with the small L's serving as Pisces fish.

As you know Nanette; there's a lot more that connects JT. to these crimes.

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12:42 PM 9/29/12 By TerryB:

As you know; that same style of "W" is found on the Tim Miller letters, none of which were forged or messed with by you.

I think the j-hooked "S" on the eight line of the JonBenet Ramsey ransom letter was intentionally made to be the shape it is, I say that based on the fact that the "h" that follows it was made to curve around the "S" in the word "She" and that same letter "S" is found in the Chicago Lipstick killer case.

I can't help but suspect that the "W" was significant to the killer, given the fact that it is JT's middle initial; I think this fortifies the case for JT being the actual perp.


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12:46 PM 9/29/12 By TerryB:

These documents clearly show a "fanciful" structure, which is a thing that runs throughout all of the crimes that we've explored.

Of course; the backwards stemmed font style lower case letter "t" is found on many Zodiac killer documents as well as one example being found on the JonBenet Ramsey ransom letter, a very telling one IMO.

Nanette, I'm spelling out her name rather than her initials so that the search engines will include this thread on a JonBenet Ramsey which acts as a keyword. JonBenet Ramsey ransom note; being another keyword(s).

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Reply with quote  #2 
Yeah Nanette, this is a good way to organize this board, I'm sorry for any strife that I might have caused. The old thread that was on DK's board on JonBenet Ramsey had a lot of good points compiled that showed that there were many reasons to put JT at the top of the suspect list.

Your point is well taken about you not having specific knowledge in for example the CLK case but let me say that I totally convinced of JT's involvement, I say this based on the handwriting evidence and many other things that point right to JT. None of this is wishful thinking on my part or an overzealous response but is based on all of the evidence as a compilation and as you know; there is a lot of it.

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Reply with quote  #3 
Nanette, I noticed that within the writings of the Chicago Lipstick killer documents that the small letter "y's" have the variations in the stem shapes, as you know; many laypersons will fixate on one type of example to declare a match or mismatch....my point is is this shows a normal variation in his letters.

I also noticed in your examples of the small or lower case "h" and the shape of the loop, this variation compares directly to the Red Phantom letter in the words "hell-hole", this is where I claim that he very deliberately inserted his initials with the way he manipulated the loops of the "h" to act as a stem for his initials JT.

In the "Get reddy" Degnan ransom note I clearly see his initials formed around the misspelled word "waite", do you see what I mean?

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Reply with quote  #4 
"Get $20,000 Reddy and Waite".... notice the dagger shaped "y" on reddy that points to the letter "A" in Waite, the "y" is shaped to serve as a "J" when used with the sound of the "A" you get the "J", then you have the "te" which serves as the initial "T". I suspect that the "W" in Waite serves as his middle initial.

I know this seems like a stretch or simply too much for some folks but I say this based on lots of study and review. I still study these documents and notice things, it all reminds me of  several songs by and for example; The Beatles, that the more you listen to some of them..... the more nuances you start to notice.

Very artistic and fanciful work on all of the handwritten documents in these cases, too bad he was so sick.

BTW, get ready and wait is a typical military/army thing or theme.

Also I noted that $20,000 was a more sensible ransom amount than was $118,000 fifty years later but notice that both victims were brutally murdered and already dead by the time the note was discovered., very similar to the Leopold and Leob(sp) case. BTW, I believe JT was a student of the Leopold and Leob case.

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Reply with quote  #5 
I read through the article, "Bill Heirens asks for help...", and noted that one of the bulleted points states that:
Quote:
The lipstick message and ransom note were written by different people


I'm not certain, but I believe this information was presented by former FBI handwriting analyst David Grimes, who in 1996 concluded:
Quote:
Heirens’ known handwriting did not match either the Degnan ransom note or the infamous "Lipstick Message."[34] supporting the two earlier results of the original 1946 investigation and Herbert J. Walter's original January 1946 opinion. In addition, the handwriting of the notes don't match each other


This quote was taken from the Heiren's Wikipedia page but can be found word for word, and in variations thereof, at several other sites including trutv.com, murderpedia.org, lifeontherow.proboards.com. There was also apparently information about this in the Northwestern University Clemency petition filed in 2002 by the law students who were trying to prove Heirens innocent. But, I can't find the documents- their website is now defunct since Heirens has died, and the Wayback Machine doesn't have it.
Grimes was also interviewed by Sam Donaldson on a PrimeTime Live episode about the case, called The Wrong Man? which aired on August 7,1996; but I haven't been able to locate the video or transcript for that episode.

I'm posting in this thread because you asked for links to the evidence and since there isn't a handwriting report by Grimes available online I figured you wouldn't want it in the other thread.

Anyway, I was just wondering what your thoughts were about Grimes stating that the lipstick writing and the Degnan ransom note writing were not done by the same person?
   
TerryB

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Reply with quote  #6 
That was a good post by you Jupiter.

I would point out that the wall writing involves a different "muscle memory" than does a handwritten document, since the wall writing uses the entire arm and shoulder vs the stationary arm and hand by itself. Moreover: In comparing the writings... I point out that that most of the letters were constructed with the same style and that style is very unique in this particular instance, it's very "artistic" when compared to the average writings of most people and I would think that especially true of most criminals in general.

I've read many if not all of the so-called handwriting reports in the JonBenet Ramsey case, several were shear nonsense, even as a layperson to this subject; I could tell for example: that Patsy Ramsey's exemplars were very very different when compared to the ransom letter. The report by Dusek (sp) of the Secret Service was one that I rely on, those that concurred with him were also valid, the ones that included Patsy Ramsey as the author were pure unscientific crapola and many members of the judiciary have said the same thing.

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Reply with quote  #7 
Heirens didn't receive anything that even remotely resembles "due process". His basic rights were trounced on, very shameful stuff. Why he wasn't given a new trial was also very shameful.

Most burglars aren't viscous killers of women and children, he admitted he was a burglar, he didn't shoot the gun to kill a cop, his story checks out. 

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Reply with quote  #8 
TerryB, I kind of see what you mean with the elongated stem on the T that extends nearly to the W below it. Be right back...

OK, the N's, T's, and W's appear to be an attempt at disguise, and while even as an attempt to disguise, look how similar they still are to JT's. We did a project on trying to disguise our own handwriting amongst 7 students while providing the class with exemplars in our "real" handwriting. We were asked to match the disguised writing to the known handwriting of the students who participated. Let me tell you, while I thought I was disguising my handwriting, I wrote more like myself than I realized, and it was fairly easy even when I compared the handwriting after wards myself to see that I left all kinds of my own habits behind.

Pay attention to those W's because when we get to the 2005 TM letter, you will see these very same W's once again. This is where I link that letter to the LK killings.

Jupiter, I do not have the background in many of these cases. As it should be par for the course with a document examiner because truly if the handwriting is a scientific method then it doesn't matter what the background is. So, with that thought in mine, I rendered my opinion based on pure handwriting.

Let's not forget how many different looking handwriting's we see from the Zodiac. Some people believed they were different people say from the Red Phantom killer to the Zodiac to the Channel 9 News letter while I found that all these were written by the same person.

PS, While Hannah MacFarland (sic?) from Steve Hodel's last book, identified the handwriting of LK, BD, and Z to all be from the same person, I do not endorse his theory that his father was the suspect simply due to the fact that it would have made his father 70 years old during the Z murders which makes him an impossible suspect because the eye witnesses including the police guaged his age at 35 - 45 years old. So, that means at least one other document examiner has agreed with me on the origination of these writings from 3 different crime sprees. She is just a little confused as to the suspect possibility.

If an FBI agent exculpated Heirens based on handwriting then why did the FBI put him away? I know that it was the FBI who made the identification on the only smudged bloody fingerprint found at the scene of the crime in one of the women's homes, so this does not lend credibility to the fact that an FBI handwriting expert deemed that the writing came from 2 different sources, and not Heirens. We are already sorrowful over the false conviction that claimed the formative/final years of a man's life, but we won't go there right now.

I do have communications that occurred with the advocacy attorney of Heirens'. It was not pretty, but I will post them in the evidence thread once I have had a chance to download them, and others were by phone with Dennis and myself which I will cover to the best of my knowledge. It has been a little bit since those calls, but the world should know what happened to Heirens.

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Reply with quote  #9 
PS, after thought, it is seriously disconcerting that the FBI found evidence that suggested more than one person was involved in this crime if you were to believe both the fingerprint and handwriting evidence, but they concluded their investigation and conviction of Heirens without looking for others.

I would think that a Navy Seal, CIA, Secret Agent, Black Ops, or the toughest of the toughest trained Marines would have been able to resist the beating and torture, not to mention the truth serum, but not a 17 year old boy without telling on anyone else that was involved. This whole case stinks, and I don't buy a word of it...

Yes TerryB, the way they treated Heirens should have gained him a new trial, if not immediately then at some point when these rights came into play. There has been way too many people who received a new trial based on their treatment and were probably still guilty, but they got a new trial anyway, and some of them were released. Sickening...

To date, I believe that Heirens still holds the record for the longest man in history to be incarcerated for a crime.

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Reply with quote  #10 
Nanette, please read post #6 paragraph two and tell me what you think about the point I make with the wall writing using arm and shoulder movement/muscle memory vs handwritten documents.

Things like that "W" tell me that JT wanted credit for his deeds and those sorts of copies throughout his writing leave us a trail to follow.

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Reply with quote  #11 
Based upon my readings, the FBI had nothing to do with the fingerprint found on the doorjamb in Francis Brown's apartment. The FBI's only involvement in the case came at the request of Capt. Timothy O'Connor. After the Chicago Crime Detection Lab failed to raise any prints on the Degnan ransom note, O'Connor took the note, in January 1946, to the FBI to see if they could find any prints using Iodine Fuming (which apparently only the FBI did at that time).
The FBI did find 2 prints on the front of the note and these were photographed as evidence by the FBI lab; but the FBI made no attempts to match the prints to anyone. The matches were made by Chicago PD's fingerprint expert, Sgt. Thomas Laffey. Who, interestingly, initially claimed that the prints were so incomplete as to be unusable, but then when Heirens was  arrested claimed they were a match to him.
Even Laffey could not say that the bloody print on the doorjamb positively matched Heirens and testified to this at his sentencing. Most likely, the claims of a definitive match were made in the newspapers, much like when they printed that Heirens had confessed to the crime before he ever did!

As for whether a document examiner needs to have knowledge of a case prior to becoming involved, I'd agree that they do not. I'd even go a step further and say that it is probably best if they remain totally in the dark about all aspects of the case while doing the exam, so as to remain completely objective. I know that handwriting analysis is considered to have a scientific basis, but the outcome is still influenced by the analyst's personal views and experiences. I think you'd agree that it's possible for 2 doctors to examine the same patient and come up with 2 different diagnoses, or 2 histopathologists to review the same biopsy sample and provide a different description of what they see. These professions are also clearly science-based, but are not free from human subjectivity. People, often unintentionally, will draw different conclusions based upon their prior training and experiences, even in instances where you would expect that the outcome should be the same.
I think this is, for me, why I would need more than a handwriting analysis to be able to definitively convince myself of someone's guilt or innocence. As you pointed out, Hannah McFarland, believes all the writing was done by the same person, just not the person you believe it is. David Grimes believes there were 2 separate authors, and Bart Baggett submitted his "preliminary and qualified" opinion that Deborah Perez wrote 3 of the Zodiac letters. I'm sure each analyst worked hard to reach their conclusions, but the fact that they are so varied is troubling to me.

On a side note, I still know far too little about the Heiren's case but this discussion has piqued my interest and I may need to delve into it further. I'm thinking about ordering Dolores Kennedy's book, William Heirens: His Day in Court. If I do, and if I come across anything interesting, I'll share it.

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Reply with quote  #12 
I've read that Debra Perez was proven to be wrong about being in possession of Paul Stine's glasses because in fact; photographic evidence available to the public shows that Stine's glasses were still on his face after he was shot and laying across the front seat of the car with his head out of the door. Additionally; some folks say she was way too young at the time to have penned any of the early Zodiac letters.

The Zodiac case has been a cash cow for some people.

Taking Heirens to the scene of the crime and having him climb through the window clearly demonstrates that he wasn't getting legal help, there was no physical evidence to link him to the crimes, no previous MO. An illegally obtained confession was forced out of him against his will. He was a scapegoat.


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Reply with quote  #13 
I know that the claims made by Perez were ridiculous, Her step- father had nothing to do with the crimes and she was never at a crime scene. And yet, a trained document examiner, Bart Baggett, claimed that she was involved based upon her handwriting.
My point was that even though there is a scientific basis to handwriting analysis it is not infallible because it relies on human opinion/ experience/ training. As long as there is a human component to any scientific field ( including medicine, physics, etc.) there will be human error, and I believe these cases illustrate that. 3 document examiners, 3 suspects and 1 document examiner who states that there are 2 authors to a set of writings while 2 other document examiners say the same set of writings are written by 1 author but they name a different person.

As for Heirens, what the police and the newspapers did to him when he was, essentially, a child is terrible. They allowed themselves to be caught up in the hysteria of the moment and violated his civil rights; even if he were guilty ( and I don't know enough about the case to be sure if he was or not), he should not have been treated the way he was.
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Reply with quote  #14 
Bart Baggett is person that I have no respect for...... he did it to himself with regards to credibility via the Debra Perez incident and other incredible statements he's made.

In many technical fields there are people that get straight A's in the course(s), yet they have no comprehension of the subject at hand, these same people can memorize the answers to the tests but they gain no grasp of the subject. Typically these same people are at the head of the class and are much more concerned about political advancement then they are about doing the actual work.

Another so-called expert is the Prof Donald Foster of the JonBenet Ramsey case, an unbelievable buffoon that blew his own credibility and did so; several times over.

Jesus said: "Beware of the man who preaches to appeal in the eye's of men, for the gates of hell are wide and many false profits shall pass". 

I'm not a religious Zealot but I think that last statement sums up my point.

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Reply with quote  #15 
Sorry it took me so long to respond. I try to keep this to a minimum so as not to consume my life with it as it did a year or so ago. When you realize that your work is in vain due to the politics of the case, you only keep plugging on and hope that someone takes notice, but at a pace that does not compromise the people around you.

TerryB, in regards to arm and shoulder movement/muscle memory. I do not understand your statement. The way we write is purely based on our brain and the perception of what a letter should look like. I do understand the essence of fine muscle movement that the fingers can achieve versus the muscles necessary and used for the arm to create these same features; however, I believe that your brain is in control of both your finger muscles as well as your arm muscles, so the perception that is related to those muscles will still be the same... Let me give you some examples:

You can find on my website: http://www.handwritingdocumentexamination.com a testimonial from one of my first cases I defended in court from Danielle Sone. This case involved a CD with the handwritten names of artists and songs that had been recorded to it, and this was the only exemplar I had to compare to the words "UNFINISHED BUSINESS" that was scratched into the hood of a car with a key. The culprit left behind more than 20 identifying characteristics that indicated she was the one who damaged the vehicle. We had the opportunity to appear on Judge Judy, and I was so excited; however, the defendant denied the opportunity to do so which I found to be absurd because they would have paid her damages if she did so. Turns out that it was heard in small claims court hear locally, and due to the financial hardship of my client, I did represented her in court for the cost of a verbal opinion. This was one of my first pro bono cases because at the time I was going to school, and found my client to be the typical starving student who needed justice.

Another case of long arm movement involved a neighbor harassment case where the neighbor had not only complained to the CCR manager, but they took it upon themselves to leave a personal message in Sharpe on the victim's front door. This again is a long arm movement, and I would have to believe at this point that as many of my cases are settled long before a trial to a degree of about 95%, that after I rendered my opinion in a report that the LE agency involved in this case found the culprit because I never heard from that client again. When you don't hear from your client again in this business it means you have done your job and solved their crime. I suspect that this client received the justice that they deserved simply due to the lack of contact after receiving my report.

Jupiter, I read some where that the FBI was responsible for that identification, and that just lends to what you can believe in the Internet or not. I have not posted all the articles or evidence I have on this case, and I might just run across the article that indicates my observance on this case. I am very sorry to hear about the way they handled the evidence in this case!

TerryB, I have been saying this about DP for quite some time, and it is a shame that anyone would take her serious while pushing Dennis to the side. This shows a bias and deliberate attempt to cover the real evidence in this case that only Dennis has.

Jupiter and TerryB, in regards to the last couple posts:

I think that TerryB could not have made their last post more eloquent or concise, and I would like to elaborate on the comments that TerryB has made due to certain revelations, but the bottom line is that unless you are true of heart you can be bought. I am not one of these people, and due to my work and diligence on this case without pay unlike those mentioned in this thread, I would hope that people could sort out the realists from the capitalists.




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