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habituation

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Reply with quote  #31 
Jt supposedly purchased a home in MN from some family, and it was purchased before JT moved the family there. This supports JT going ahead of the family to find a home for them.
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Reply with quote  #32 
Nanette- when you've had the chance to get the room with JTs things organized, I hope you can post more about those Zodiac letters corresponding to the MN and CA moves. I'm not familiar with any Z letters received in that time frame. 
habituation

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Reply with quote  #33 
Jupiter, I can tell you off the top of my head that the "Channel Nine News Letter" was sent in May 78, and I have a PowerPoint presentation I presented to the forensics department of ITT Tech last year that indicates a letter sent in 1974 (Red Phantom Letter to Marco), and I worked on this presentation with Dennis. It states that a letter was mailed in 74 when JT was sentenced to 30 days for poaching, and then moved the family which is why I indicated that the 2/75 doctor's appt was a visit that JT made back to CA without the family. I do think that I have XMAS pics from Mary's house in CA during this time, and the biggest set of pictures JT keeps seem to be vacations to relatives in different states.

Again, this is based on the stories and memories of DK.

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Reply with quote  #34 
Oh, ok. I thought you meant that there were Z letters sent between 1975- 1977. I am familiar with the Red Phantom and Channel Nine letters.
The February trip to Dr. Lavorgna was in 1976, and I believe that the family was still in CA at that time because Jack's lawyers mailed him the doctor's report to the North Highlands, CA address in March of '76. As to whether Jack went to MN ahead of the family, maybe some of the papers you have not yet gone through can show if that was the case. 
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Reply with quote  #35 
Nanette, sorry I'm late in  responding, I've had a busy week. Michael Helgoth's involvement is a theoretical tangent to the JBR murder. He had shirt or cap that had the letters SBTC on it, he had a stun gun and allegedly Hi-Tech boots, there was some prior episode where he was alleged to have said he didn't "trust himself" around his girlfriends young daughter. Within a day of Alex Hunter announcing that they would find the killer; Helgoth allegedly committed suicide. He allegedly had no history of depression, was shot through a pillow with a rifle through the side of his chest, the wound was such that he would have used the opposite hand vs his dominant hand, so it was all kinda fishy. He "could" have been involved but it also could have been a false lead. If we go with the reasoning that JT was involved with a cultivation of pedophiles then one can construct a theory that might fit Helgoth's involvement, it's also certainly possible that Helgoth was simply an unwitting patsy.

All these cases have several theoretical tangents and stories that occur after the fact, as is the case with Karr. I compartmentalize these things and set them aside for the most part because they can distract from the core evidence. The timing of these alleged suicides would work to the advantage of the real perpetrators, Chris Busch in OCCK case, Helgoth in JBR case, Ivans in Amerithrax case, Ed Burns in E. Short case, Heiren's was the patsy in the Chicago Lipstick murders. Fake suicides has always been organized crimes favorite ploy, history is laced with many examples of convenient deaths.


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Reply with quote  #36 
Jupiter, I realize that letters were mailed during that time, and JT was notorious for continuing business in one location while setting up in another. I have seen many addresses including po boxes that he has used long after moving. Just like the house in San Jose that he kept into 1972 even though we know he was in So. Lake Tahoe by 1971 working for the laundry company and hooking up with Dennis' mom.

TerryB, That makes sense, but I think that if we show how all these tangents play into each other then you can develop the pattern. JMK with the Singapore and Thailand letters from Z. I think that to complete the picture we must use all the puzzle pieces for it to make sense. It is just to coincidental that JMK turned himself in 8 days before JT passed.

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Reply with quote  #37 
Nanette, that's a very good point regarding Karr and there is a common connection regarding the "pedophile factor," the same can be said about Helgoth, unfortunately the trail grows cold after that, unless some further connectivity is made. There is more to the Helgoth story but I'll have to go back and study up on it again. A lot of people didn't buy that Helgoth killed himself.

Then there is the pedophile factor regarding the Nancy Krebs deposition.

The "pedophile factor" is of course a prime element in the OCCK cases.

The Zodiac killer plainly boasted that children were gonna be his next targets.

Yeah Nanette, the timing of Mark Karr on the scene is suspicious, then you have his direct message that the killing of JBR was an accident, well....we know that that's a blatant lie by the way she was throttled to death and then a massive blow was delivered to her head, overkill really.

Then we have the very suspicious business of the disappearance of the computer evidence in California that would have meant jail time for that creepy bastard. That spurred a massive investigation of the people that had custody of the evidence which produced no results!(or faulty and bad results!) Of all of the evidence they held on other cases; I wonder if any other items of evidence went missing? For people that think we are just crackpot fanatics about these cases, they have to ask themselves "how could this happen"? This fact is in the public domain and is provable that the evidence against Karr went missing. This means that once again the public has proof of corruption of LE in high places! There's no two ways about it!

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Reply with quote  #38 
Hi Nanette, I was about to vent my frustration regarding Helen Dagner, she thinks she's all things OCCK, she very arrogant and has pissed a lot of people off. I copied the following from her MB, it makes no mention of being copyrighted nor can it really be so. This was in her Feedback Feedback Feedback thread that she started, it doesn't credit the author nor does that thread contains any strongly worded FEEDBACK as she so richly deserves, It does go to a point I tried to convey on the Topix forum under the OCCK section, so perhaps she may be coming around to my(our) way of looking at those murders but she's too arrogant to concede my point.

Quote:

Helen, Here's one thing that gets overlooked in the argument over valid suspects. This killer was organized. This was not the work of an erratic mind. If this killer had mental health issues, they would be related to depression and/or anger, not any kind of flamboyant, outward pathology. The lack of gender selectiveness (and the abuse of only one of the genders) suggests a motive beyond simple gratification. In other words, a message. The killer derived satisfaction from what he inflicted upon the community. This person was/is not able to create or sustain healthy, normal relationships (platonic or romantic) among peers, and sought connection (sexual and otherwise) amongst children. This is not to say that the killer (and/or an accomplice) didn't derive perverse pleasure from his ritual, but that there was an overarching idea behind his acts that he used as justification. If these killings are linked to a larger circle of deviants, then the killer may well have been pointing a spotlight back on them, and may well have been a victim at some point. The signature here is the overt placement of the dressed bodies and the non-demonstrative manner of murder. Why would the killer do this?
 
Very much so JT101, I'D say!

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Reply with quote  #39 
I seen some movement in this case yesterday. I'm going to keep the specifics to myself at this point, but trust me when I say that JT will be looked at. It may clear him or include him, we shall see.

TerryB, the whole thing about JMK for me, aside from the computer missing and him going scott free, is that he had enough information about JBR to get a free ride presidential style back to the US laughing and drinking away. He knew enough to get people's attention, so it wouldn't look like Homeland security was just giving a free ride to a pedophile who help to conceal the governments escapades, and subsequently set this f'ing pervert back upon society as payment for his services.

It is just as disgusting as Unit 731 in Japan, I believe. Where they tested bio warfare to see how long it took to die, diseases to see how the symptoms occurred, and bisection to test how long it takes to bleed out on innocent people/children just to see what it did to them, and when the US went to clean up the mess, we gave those war criminals free passages and new lives right here in the US in exchange for their knowledge because the US could never pull off such a thing and get away with it, and the government wanted the knowledge. It seems that they will stop at nothing to get what they want.

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Reply with quote  #40 
Nanette, how many defendants in the history of American law enforcement have enjoyed the loss of critical evidence by LE, I'd say almost never, maybe back in the Chicago Mob days, maybe?

Helen Dagner did link a recent article on a  new suspect in the OCCK case, they say they found hairs in the suspects 69 Pontiac that are said to match those on the victims....they did say on so I tend to think that  they may be referring to the white dog hairs but maybe not? It's not her pet suspect either, no pun intended.

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Reply with quote  #41 
Nanette- I'm not sure if this is what you are referring to, but I did see this story the other day.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/07/17/breaking-news-update-in-oakland-county-child-killer-case/

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Reply with quote  #42 
That article says the bodies were dumped....that's not at all true.

When I read that I realized that the source was faulty, and/or someone is faulty.

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Reply with quote  #43 
One of the prime characteristics of the OCCK was the fact that the kid's bodies were carefully laid out on display, not just dumped, their clothes had been cleaned which was why they were dubbed the "babysitter killings". Victim Timothy King had been fed Kentucky Fried Chicken which was one of his favorite meals.

These are some of the prime reasons that Nanette and I think these 4 murders were Zodiac Jack 101, coupled with "Pray it doesn't snow" phoned into Dr Danto. It was all too organized, too bold, too slick and very diabolical, a very underhanded set of crimes. White dog hairs found on all of the known victims.The killer(s) risked getting caught by laying the bodies out on display, one was right across the street from a police station in plain view, one was still very warm when discovered. This killer was taking a big chance on getting caught in the act which is very much like the Paul Stine murder.

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Reply with quote  #44 
I would guess that the reporter used the word "dumped" either for shock value or just because they haven't fully educated themselves on the case ( an all too common problem with news nowadays, IMO). I don't think that the reporter's poor choice of word really detracts from the new lead LE is pursuing.

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Reply with quote  #45 
I think the really shocking thing is the fact that the killer(s) took the time to lay the victims out with their hands crossed, coupled with the really heartless characteristics of the murders. Again, seemingly motiveless and done upon the defenseless. It had a shock value just like the Zodiac killings and was in keeping with what the Zodiac killer said he was gonna do next, and was done "to the letter."
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